Med Tape Premed (and other factors)

[dmac]

Minor update in red, made on 17 Sep 2011:

I've been adding up all the tape mentioned in autopsy reports, and here's what I've found (all estimates are based on minimum lengths so as not to overshoot the very minimum amount of tape used in the crime):

Sue-

Having smaller wrists, one wrap around both wrists is still at least 8 inches.
The report lists at least three loops, and up to five loops around her wrists, plus more around the wrist where the taping began. Wraps around her ankles would be a minimum of 10 inches per loop, and the report lists "at least five" loops, plus more around the ankle where the taping began.

Also, the autopsy report lists multiple strips of tape used in the gag, four of which were 'up to an estimated 8 inches in length'. As only four are mentioned at near that length, I will only list 32" worth of tape, ignoring the other strips not clearly detailed.

8x3= 24"
8x5= 40"
5x10= 50"
4x8"- 32"

Total: Sue had a minimum of 146" of tape used to restrain her (including the extra used to start the loops)

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Johnny-

One wrap around the wrists would be a minimum of 10", as the tape also went around the broad parts of his hands and/or the coat he was wearing. The reports lists a minimum of three loops. With an extra 2" to start the process, the total on his wrist would be a minimum of 32"

He had no tape on his legs.


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Dana-

Dana's autopsy report only mentions "multiple loops" around his wrists. This is clearly evident from photos, as well. I have a minimum count of three loops, at 10" per loop because of his thicker arms and how it was looped.

Dana was wearing large hiking boots, and the tape was wrapped fully around one boot, and then around his other boot and leg. That's at least 60" of tape on his boots alone for one good wrap using that method.

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Total

This is only a rough estimation of the amount of tape used on Johnny, Sue, and Dana. I have ALWAYS aimed at the minimal amount of tape needed to do the job. That count is 268", or 22.3 feet.

Back then, and even now, the common length for rolls of household medical tape was 5 yards, or fifteen feet. 180 inches. That means more than one standard roll of tape was already used inside of cabin 28, not counting the fact I underestimated and did not take into account the tape used on Sue's mouth as part of the gag. It'salso likely Tina was bound with tape, but there's no way to determine that. The amount of wide tape vs narrow tape used would prove whether at least 3 (brand new) rolls of tape were in use. The only time the wider tape is mentioned is on Dana, the strongest of the victims. If all the tape used on Sue and Johnny is the narrow width, that means the very minimal amount of narrow tape used on Sue and Johnny is 178 inches, or 98.88888% of a brand-new 5 yard roll. If I underestimated by only three inches (and the other strips on Sue's gag would account for far more than 3"), that's definitely at least two full rolls of narrow tape used, and one roll of wide tape in use. Three rolls of medical tape and no premed?

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Summation:

We have a crime that began so late at night, the very time-frame is an indicator of intent of something. You don't ask for a cup of sugar at that hour, do you? So, going to Cabin 28 that late means you had something in or on your mind. The term "premeditation" doesn't come into play until an actual crime is plotted or intended, and 'drunk and disorderly' and 'trespassing' don't exactly match that horrid level of intent.

Next is the fact more tape was used to bind them than can be easily explained away. Unless Sue had multiple rolls of medical tape handy (since taping and gagging was done before much, if any, blood had been spilled), it was brought to the cabin. In rural areas, you're not very useful unless you carry a pocketknife, so claims of pocket knives mean nothing towards premeditation in this case. But who carries around medical tape? THAT would definitely match the definition of premeditation of a greater crime.

Since this initial post, it has been determined from LE records that two separate widths of medical tape were used to bind the victims found in Cabin 28, which alone proves multiple rolls were used in the crime, and further proves premeditation was likely as no survivor from Cabin 28 recalls any medical tape in the house, much less multiple rolls, and Marilyn stated on April 13 there should be several rolls of med tape in cabin 26.

Last, but not least, is Weapon #4. What was it? Can it be accounted for as an object missing from 28, like a piece of broken furniture? The crime scene photos I've seen show absolutely no broken furniture, so are these simply more melodramatic claims from a loopy officer, or are there photos and reports supporting the 'smashed furniture' claims? Weapon #4 was long, solid, and consistently, evenly shaped where the damage was done on Dana. All the other "tools" used by the killers were found in the front room, so where is #4? Was it taken outside the cabin with Tina and later discarded? Is it a piece of evidence intentionally held out of public scrutiny by LE?

There was a degree of intent that something unpleasant was going to happen in Cabin 28 that night. The perps did not go there with roses and candy in mind. The main questions from this post / thread are:

Was there enough intent of a crime to constitute premeditation, and to what end?
Was the tape brought with them?
Was weapon #4 brought with them?

Discussion of Weapon 4 found here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=377&p=5340

This is not meant to be a post that ends up in a free-for-all of pointless speculation. It is solely meant to lay out evidence that there was clearly a degree of intent or premeditation by the perps, and any solid answers to the above questions can help explain the degree of premed and, perhaps, what ends the perps had in mind when approaching cabin 28 that night.

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[dmac]

Tape looms large in this case. It was clearly the first physical binding (at least remaining, if there were earlier restraints) on all the victims in the cabin, and there was a vast amount of tape used- well over one (1) fifteen foot roll. Why didn't LE piece together the tape? If they removed the tape properly and matched up in which order the pieces came from the roll, they would know in which order the victims were bound, amongst many other things.

Even then, it would have been relatively easy to do so just by looking at the ends with the naked eye. Was it cut with a knife? Was it torn with tooth and/or hand, as is so easy to do with cloth-backed tape. Just the way the tape was applied to each victim could indicate a lot, such as whether a knife was already in play (or when it came into play) and how many perps were involved. The tape should, to this day, hold a goldmine of genetic info and/or fingerprints from the perps. What exactly is PCSO's major malfunction in not testing these things?

Oh, wait, DeCrona unplugged the cord on the fridge, and PCSO had used this tape (all of it) to repair the worn electrical cord on the fridge. Then, when they put it in the storage unit, it got rain damaged. Then DeCrona accidentally kicked it back into an outlet in the storage unit, which started a fire. Now it's in his garage, with God-knows how many other case-related files and evidence.

Well done, PCSO. As in 'burned beyond recognition'.

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[frida]

dmac-you are the best. you make me laugh out loud.

[Jdombrowski89]

Tape looms large in this case...

I like your idea about the tape, and how it easily could have been carefully taken apart to see whom was bound first,etc. I've witnessed, and seen several instances where this was common procedure. One story comes to mind when discussing this element, is the murder of Norma Rodriguez, which was showcased on A&E's "Cold Case Files. In this crime, a piece of duct tape, roughly 20 feet long, was wrapped around Norma's head 14 times. The conclusion resulted in a conviction of Norma's killer. Even though the medical tape is of different texture, etc, it would still have been beneficial to use it. For instance, if the killer(s) had no scissors, it could be possible that the tape was ripped from the role by using their mouth. By doing this, the killer(s) would have left traces of saliva/DNA on the tape. Even the smallest piece of saliva from the individual would yield a rich amount of DNA. Enough to be tested to a suspect, or suspects. Even if the individual had ripped it with their hand, they still would have left some form of skin evidence. Therefore the most important pieces of the tape, if they were tested, would have been the end and beginning of the bindings around the victims. And Dmac, as you've stated, the tape could tell us all of that, and more. But it is rather unfortunate that PCSO did indeed "burn" the evidence beyond recognition.

Leave it to the responsibility of incompetent individuals to ruin a case.

Did anyone know if LE had searched underneath Sue, John, and Dana's fingernails for any traces of skin tissue from the perpetrators?

As far as Premeditation, the fact alone that they at least brought the tape would indefinitely suggest a form of Pre-Meditation. Basically enough it means that the crime in part was planned ahead. If the case was ever brought to trial (Which I highly doubt because of the mishandling of evidence,etc) you would have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the killers came there, intending to kill Sue, Dana, John, and Tina. But with this all we have is evidence being duct tape being an item that most likely was brought by the killers. Of course there could be more that points to what the killers brought, and I am not disputing that, but we have the notion also that the murder weapons used were not foreign. They came from inside the household. At a first glance of course there is premeditation of some form of harm/intent against the individuals, but it only grew to the homicides of 4 innocent people.

[dmac]

OK, we're devolving from evidence to joke to a belief the joke may be the evidence.

Two kinds of tape posted by Josh enters into the premed thread- two definite different rolls of medical tape used in the same crime. Alarming.

Were separate tools brought? Well, we have evidence of tape and a pocket knife, as stated by Justin and as backed by what was found in the trash behind the Keddie General Store, some 150 yards away.

Weapon 4? The autopsy of Dana said he was both manually strangled and bludgeoned to death. As with the others, killed at least twice. We have no opinion on Weapon 4 (the bludgeon) other than it may be a leg from the card table. Not disproving a device is not the same as proving it was weapon 4. No proof whatsoever, and it's tedious to alarm folks to the fact we're still waiting to find weapon 4. Was weapon 4 from inside the cabin? WE HAVE NO IDEA! the leg, maybe, but not proved...

Tape brought to house? Highly likely. Did both perps know one perp had tape, premise, and premed? No, not even remotely can we say that. Two perps, maybe only one had a bunch of tape. maybe two rolls. That does not mean both knew what the game plan was, although both are equally guilty by law. Just because one brought tape and a lame plan does not mean the other was aware of it, much less signed on until it escalated.

Knife brought to house? Highly likely. As with tape, Justin mentions it and such a knife was found amidst blood evidence in the trash bin behind the Keddie Gen Store.

What are we missing? Types of wounds made? The order of binding? The order of damage done? Yes, we're all missing that right now. But Sue was the target and fought hardest and had blood on her feet matching her bloody footprints. She was bound three ways to gag her, much less bind her after she'd received a vicious attack not likely possible before being bound by wire. Then she was covered by a perp, not Justin. Only a perp did that cathartic move. Cathartic.

Do the math. This was no outside job.

Pardon my escalating english. Please think about what a stupid plan was in place by two dumbasses, maybe only one 'mastermind' in the know, and our idiot Inspector DT Clouseau whiffing out all danger. Talk about a journey of the damned.

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[tcmc]

LE did, in fact, piece the tape back together. It was also tested for DNA.

[meankitty]

Did they ever get fingerprints off the tape?

[tcmc]

No.

[BUTTERFLYVALLEY1]

In one of things I've read re: what Justin said. Apparently the dark haired man took it out of his right pocket.

In one of the interviews, a neighbor (across the street?) said that Sue always had that kind of tape around her house. Perhaps the boys were normal rough and ready for a tumble as most boys are; some girls too.

[Chichibcc]

In one of the interviews, a neighbor (across the street?) said that Sue always had that kind of tape around her house. Perhaps the boys were normal rough and ready for a tumble as most boys are; some girls too.

What neighbor said that?

[dcheryl83]

Last, but not least, is Weapon #4...

Posted in "Just the Facts" Topic "Justin"

by jhancock » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:53 am

Somewhat related: I have learned that some of the furniture was broken and that the victims were most likely struck or beaten with pieces of the broken furniture.

[dmac]

LE did, in fact, piece the tape back together. It was also tested for DNA.

Show me any shred of proof, Dave Kelller. You are a complete fraud, and an incredibly inept liar. Your forum account here is active, so have no fear about posting and being confronted with abundant proof of the dishonest, exploitative, abusive prick you are.

You said Bo was ID'd by LE as the killer of the Grimes girls? Ask Deb what she found when she called LE to verify your account, Dave Liar Keller.

Deb, if you want, cut loose on this ceaseless turdbag.

The portion of this thread confronting Dave Keller's statements has been split off to this new thread.

[wonderer]

Has the tape been speculated to have come from the veterans hospital where bo and marty met?

[dmac]

Yep. Also, Loon told PCSO on 4-13 Bo & Marty did it, and she had loads of med tape in 26.

[Princess]

I thought that Loon said that the med tape came from her house? I know that is what she said at first but we all know how she lies so much, just curious.

[wonderer]

I only ask because some brands are retail/domestic use and some are commercial/hospital grade so it could of been a point of interest.

[dmac]

Same goes for shoelaces and toilet paper, but I hardly find it relevant here. We've found what there is about the med tape: Two different widths were used, indicating two separate rolls, and enough tape was used to account for over 3 rolls of tape found in homes by normal consumers. We also know blood was on the top of the tape, meaning it was applied early or during the initial attacks. Beyond that, I can't worry about which brand or which thread-count the tape had. As with so many other things, I believe learning anything beneficial to the Big Picture from the tape is already played-out. Unless someone finds something remarkable, or a new document surfaces.

I'm finding things in old documents that blow my mind, though. Admittedly, a puppy fart is enough to blow my pea-brain out of place... but puppy breath is awful, and their farts are interminable, like a tattoo.

[wonderer]

I suppose because everyone keeps mentioning Bo and Marty meeting in hospital if it were hospital grade it would be another click in place. People love to steal stuff from hospital for their own stash or perhaps someone had a recent wound and that's another avenue. It's also an odd choice. Most would of picked duct tape.

But yes this is probably very irrelevant, assuming sue had a decent first aid kit It makes sense in my mind whilst there was premeditation they were only expecting to tackle her alone, hence the tape and cords from the house.

[dmac]

Your Qs aren't dumb, but the aspect is played out. We have no access to info detailing if LE still have any or all the tape, and LE reports indicate NOTHING. It was the autopsy reports which gave indication at least two rolls/widths were in play. LE specified nothing.

The idea that Bo and Marty stole the tape from the VA is incredibly logical, despite the fact their meeting at the VA sounds like a lie. The way the Loonibi reads, one may suspect they already knew each other and the VA is a ruse. The sloppy lie about Bo being Loon's uncle smacks of it being thrown together, like they had no real backstory. If LE still has tape, forensics could probably prove it was from the VA or other govt contractor. Fingerprints, blood DNA, all of that can be pulled from BOTH sides of existing tape. Unfortunately, we simply don't have any more details. For the time being, it's a dead end to us. Unless, as I said, someone makes a revelation, or new info surfaces.

By the way, you do realize almost everything in 28 was second-hand? And that at least two rolls of tape were used, based on the different widths of med tape found? And over three rolls were used, based on lengths of rolls commercially sold? I'm saying at least 4 rolls were used. Why would the killers look for med tape in 28 when they used cords later, during the staging? THEY BROUGHT THE DAMNED TAPE. They brought a kill kit.

If LE have the tape, we also have contact DNA, fingerprints, etc etc. As soon as the wrong people read this, certain things could easily disappear from PCSO/DOJ evidence lockers.

[dmac]

OP updated in BLUE. The math on the minimal amount of tape used was also corrected. Here's the main new addition to the OP:

Depending on the amount of wide tape vs narrow tape used, it may mean at least 3 (brand new) rolls of tape were in use. The only time the wider tape is specifically mentioned is on Dana, the strongest of the victims. If that's true, and all the tape on Sue and Johnny is the narrow width, that means the very minimal amount of narrow tape used on Sue and Johnny is 178 inches, or 98.88888% of a brand-new 5 yard roll. If I underestimated by only three inches (and the other strips on Sue's gag would account for far more than 3"), that's definitely at least two rolls of narrow tape, and one roll of wide tape. Three rolls of medical tape and no premed?